tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post436124417854897620..comments2024-03-26T16:24:34.218+00:00Comments on Meeting The Masters: The Paths of Peter and JohnWilliam Wildbloodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-50106174402327660042023-01-25T10:11:08.001+00:002023-01-25T10:11:08.001+00:00@William "My point here is that there is an o...@William "My point here is that there is an outer path and an inner path and these are represented by the two apostles as much symbolically as literally."<br /><br />Yes, you are right that That is what matters. By my understanding; the IV Gospel is clear (overall, except a couple of passages and Chapter 21 that I regard as later and alien additions) that every individual has personal access to all that is necessary to follow Jesus.<br /><br />I would dissent from Moonsphere's linking of 'John' to the 'second coming' (as contrasted with Peter and the first), because this is never mentioned in the Gospel (except in the alien 21st chapter); which instead presents (over and again) Jesus as having fully accomplished his task, with nothing left-over uncompleted. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-74195217595908767262023-01-23T18:51:37.298+00:002023-01-23T18:51:37.298+00:00No, I do think we need to be aware of the esoteric...No, I do think we need to be aware of the esoteric teachings if for no other reason than to stimulate our own intuition. They do represent intellectually that depth you spoke of earlier and so I would say are necessary but not sufficient. Actually, they are not necessarily necessary but they are very useful! <br /><br />I would go along with Tomberg. After all, "Meditations" is one of the most (properly) esoteric books there is but it is more than that for it situates the esoteric within and subordinates it to the genuinely spiritual. <br /><br />Anyone attracted to the idea of John as I am using that here would surely want to acquire greater spiritual knowledge so would inevitably be drawn to the esoteric. I would say if you don't know that side of things or are not drawn to it you are not really of the Church of John - if church it is, more a brotherhood on the inner planes really. But you have to go beyond the merely esoteric to the spiritual fire that is behind all true spiritual work.William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-32524142061149907802023-01-23T18:00:47.727+00:002023-01-23T18:00:47.727+00:00Would it be fair to say William that you are conte...Would it be fair to say William that you are contemplating how a move towards the Church of John might be achieved without involving any esoteric learning at all?<br /><br />To briefly reference Tomberg's "Meditations" - he often sternly writes of the myriad dangers of occult curiosity all the way to black magic but then he ends with a balancing counter view. He points to the everyday practices of media and politicians as a far richer source of actual examples of black magic- than might be found in any ordinary occult circle.<br /><br />And so perhaps this is potential (non-esoteric) route to the Church of John - a dawning recognition of the evil that openly operates in plain sight. This awakening can deliver such a shock that it leads one to a new depth of introspection and a doorway to the inner path that you speak of.Moonspherehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02015070450886972955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-3525940898204986432023-01-23T16:34:54.302+00:002023-01-23T16:34:54.302+00:00The word 'etheric' introduces another dime...The word 'etheric' introduces another dimension that you might call 'heighth' which is one many church Christians do not really respond to.William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-74238064322087770892023-01-23T16:03:02.074+00:002023-01-23T16:03:02.074+00:00@William - Another way of looking at the Peter/Joh...@William - Another way of looking at the Peter/John distinction - is that Peter's Church is oriented towards the First Coming and John towards to the Second Coming.<br /><br />As Jesus replied to Peter: "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"<br /><br />If the Second Coming is indeed Christ returned in the Etheric then a high percentage of Christians are going to be wholly unresponsive. To even get beyond the word "etheric" demands at least some familiarity with esotericism.<br /><br />Until that changes then any movement towards the Church of John must be postponed.<br /><br />And worse still - a growing (fatal) belief that Christ will return in the flesh - grows apace within the organised Churches.Moonspherehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02015070450886972955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-15548003961678199992023-01-23T15:42:13.630+00:002023-01-23T15:42:13.630+00:00For me those are all technical details which don&#...For me those are all technical details which don't matter that much. My point here is that there is an outer path and an inner path and these are represented by the two apostles as much symbolically as literally. The Lazarus story may be important but it is not relevant in this context.William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-32746933186225308172023-01-23T15:18:21.165+00:002023-01-23T15:18:21.165+00:00@Bruce I think the general idea was that Lazarus h...@Bruce I think the general idea was that Lazarus had found himself in a position so devoted to Christ that his desire for Earth life was wholly eclipsed and he fell ill. Magadelene using her knowledge of Egyptian initiation decided to attempt the ritual of Temple Sleep on her brother. It went wrong perhaps due to her lack of knowledge or some other factor.<br /><br />And so Lazarus actually died and was brought back from actual death by Jesus Christ. After so long in the tomb, the etheric dissolution had already taken place - and thus Lazarus received the etheric garment of Christ that he might fulfill the next two thirds of his earth destiny. <br /><br />And so who better than Lazarus - now the most highly initiated of all those who surrounded Christ - to later receive the revelation that he wrote down in the Book of Revelation.Moonspherehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02015070450886972955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-13106708929496199432023-01-23T12:28:09.466+00:002023-01-23T12:28:09.466+00:00@William - I have never been happy that the descri...@William - I have never been happy that the description of the path of "John" is accurate to what the Fourth Gospel actually says; which I find much more straightforward than its usual 'mystical'/ paradoxical reputation suggests. <br /><br />The problem is that the IV Gospel is being understood by means of cross-referencing with the Synoptics, on the assumption that there are no contradictions and that all the Gospels can be combined to make a single picture of Christ's life and ministry. But this I do not accept. <br /><br />From internal evidence, it seems probable that the IV Gospel on the one hand, and the first three Gospels on the other hand, may be of wholly separate provenance. And the Fourth is by far more authoritative - being the only eye-witness account and by a beloved disciple of Jesus (the one who I furthermore believe to be the resurrected Lazarus). <br /><br />Also, the question is muddied by the assumption (which I think is untrue) that the Epistles attributed to John, and Book of Revelation, are by the same author and (therefore) add-up to a single world-view when synthesized with the Fourth Gospel. <br /><br />In other words, I do not find that authors who emphasize the Peter versus John distinction are describing the situation accurately. <br /><br />Furthermore, Steiner/ Tomberg regards the first half of the Fourth Gospel as - somewhat allegorically - describing a seven-fold process of initiation of Jesus into an esoteric mystery sect (each miracle, of which T. says there are seven, up to Lazarus supposedly represent a stage in this process). <br /><br />For instance, the death of Lazarus was supposedly not a 'normal' death so much as the kind of death-like initiation which was practiced by the Ancient Egyptians - when someone was taken to the verge of death then revived - having looked across into the next world. I can't recall whether Tomberg says whether Lazarus actually died 'by mistake', and was drawn-back by Jesus, or whether it was a normal initiation - but that was the procedure he was supposedly undergoing. <br /><br />This I think is just wrong - root and branch. <br /><br />Having said all this; I certainly agree with you that the Fourth Gospel (properly read - which includes that that the author is Not 'John' but Lazarus himself!) is indeed the best and future path of Christian life which we, here and now, ought to be taking. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-26169575484346487452023-01-22T18:28:26.204+00:002023-01-22T18:28:26.204+00:00I didn't know about that Tomberg comparison so...I didn't know about that Tomberg comparison so thanks. It sums up just what I was trying to say.I can only think people resist the path of John because they lack spiritual depth themselves or, better put, lack the inclination to develop a deeper relationship with God and are happy to remain on the surface and not renounce their worldiness.William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-53873978705742809002023-01-22T15:53:14.384+00:002023-01-22T15:53:14.384+00:00Such an important and timely subject William.
I ...Such an important and timely subject William. <br /><br />I always liked Tomberg's comparison of Peter and John using the terms of length/breadth vs depth. He was also careful, as you have been, to pre-empt any sentiments of esoteric superiority by emphasising that Depth is dependent on the pre-existence of Length and Breadth!<br /><br />But yes the closing words of the Gospel refer to a distant time that has now arrived.<br /><br />The underlying question is why so many Christians today resist the path of John. Perhaps especially the Protestants with their infinite capacity for over-simplistic biblical refutation close themselves off from this future of Christianity. Moonspherehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02015070450886972955noreply@blogger.com