tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post3252852961358404530..comments2024-03-26T16:24:34.218+00:00Comments on Meeting The Masters: ReincarnationWilliam Wildbloodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-75067963094697088962019-12-12T08:02:13.861+00:002019-12-12T08:02:13.861+00:00Thanks for your comment, Unknown. I haven't re...Thanks for your comment, Unknown. I haven't read much Aurobindo, and what I have read was years ago, but I seem to recall he thought advaita very limiting in that it did not take account of the evolutionary aspect to life and consciousness.William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-63654384840169068872019-12-12T04:35:48.185+00:002019-12-12T04:35:48.185+00:00Praise the lord. I am so glad I found you.
I was ...Praise the lord. I am so glad I found you.<br /><br />I was getting tired of the suchness, whatness and awareness of it all. I completely believe that reincarnation is true, look at work this American university is doing:<br /> https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/<br /><br />Of note, reincarnation used to be a Christian school of thought until considered heresy and struck out by early church fathers. <br /><br />Your blog for me is refreshing. I looked at the adviata Vedanta posts you made and they really resonated with me (almost cosmic solipsism), as a philosophy it has no answer to reincarnation and ignores too many of the hindu texts to be taken seriously. If you ever have the time to read Sri Aurobindos criticism of it.Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04354233910573741871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-18677900705104275542016-07-17T16:49:57.559+00:002016-07-17T16:49:57.559+00:00I think I see what you mean. I would prefer to say...I think I see what you mean. I would prefer to say that we are spiritual beings, potentially gods, and we come to Earth to become men in order to bring that potentiality to actuality through the experiences we undergo here and the choices we make in a world where we are required to make choices.<br /><br />So flesh cannot become spirit but through experience in flesh, as you put it, spirit can become more aware of itself as spirit.William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-54676821485081625892016-07-17T12:49:55.261+00:002016-07-17T12:49:55.261+00:00Many peoples in the ancient world believed in rein...Many peoples in the ancient world believed in reincarnation of one form or another. Even Josephus the Judean General was recorded giving a speech to soldiers before a battle--a speech in which he clearly expressed their common belief in reincarnation, and told his troops not to fear death because they would be born again in the next round of incarnation.<br /><br />I take a different view from the idea of souls progressing to godhood. I do not believe in the idea that "souls incarnate in flesh to progress to becoming gods." I believe that gods incarnate in flesh to become men.<br /><br />The Son of God, Christ Our Lord, was from the beginning a god. He incarnated not to become a god, because He already was one. He incarnated to grow into a man, and to show his brethren the path to becoming men. He has brother gods, who are descending from heaven, from the Godly abode, to become men: "Father ... even as you have sent me into the world, so also have I sent these into the world ..... I pray not that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil ..."<br /><br />The Psalmist wrote: "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."<br /><br />We see here that the Chief God, who stands in the congregation of the mighty gods, judges them all. Then the Psalmist says that the gods will die like men. ". . . ye shall die like men . . ."<br /><br />So it does not seem to me like "souls" are trying to progress to "godhood." It seems just the opposite, which is why mysticism makes no sense to me. Flesh cannot be or become spirit, but spirit can become flesh. The word was made flesh, and dwelt with men. It seem that gods are progressing through birth into becoming men and that the only Master in this whole process is Christ the Lord. The mystical idea of ascended masters must give way to the idea of descended mighty ones, all under one master. Christ sent the gods into the world, to DESCEND below everything.<br /><br />There is something about a god increasing in stature and glory, and the Father of the gods sent His Sons into this predicament to die like me and drink of this deceptive world so they can see with new eyes the rock from which they are cut.<br /><br />I believe this fallen world is a rite of passage for God's children, to pass into manhood. For although God is not a man, he certainly is the pinnacle of manliness.Bible Zonehttp://biblezone.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-52053054641673561232016-05-02T10:57:28.304+00:002016-05-02T10:57:28.304+00:00Regarding reincarnation meaning different things t...Regarding reincarnation meaning different things to different people, yes absolutely. I take your point about how some see it as licence to do what they want in the immediate present, and maybe this was why it was not permitted for the Christian world. A belief in reincarnation can certainly lead to spiritual stagnation in immature minds. This is also why I wanted to draw out a difference between Western ideas about it and traditional Eastern ones. Some Buddhists do say that life in a human body is a great opportunity not to be wasted but I doubt many people actually looked at it in that way.<br /><br />I would like to see a belief in reincarnation as giving purpose and meaning to life in this world. It's not the only thing that could do that, of course. Sincere belief in God and the idea that he has put us here to learn and get closer to him would do that just as well, if not better. But it does provide a kind of structure. Hunter gatherers seem to me to live in a world governed by nature and the seasons and so think cyclically which doesn't normally lead to progression. So they would look at reincarnation as a process of coming and going without any real purpose to it. Doubtless this is why their ways of life persisted in the same way without changing for ages. The great gift of the linear historical way of thinking in Judaism with its sense of history is that things can change. It's obvious that the Christian era was the period of greatest development of anywhere ever. Again, perhaps reincarnation was not allowed in Christianity precisely so that this might happen.<br /><br />I'm speculating here and just following my thoughts. What I would say though is that if reincarnation is accepted by anyone now it has to be seen as an incentive to responsible living. Spiritually responsible I mean, as everything else springs from that. So it's not a penance or an endless cycle to be got off only by denying the reality of oneself as a person but a means of learning and growing.<br /><br />With respect to your last paragraph, I go for the combination of the two option!William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-75107317040319777182016-05-02T06:07:13.501+00:002016-05-02T06:07:13.501+00:00@William - I don't feel sure enough of my grou...@William - I don't feel sure enough of my ground on this topic to push my own views. I am particularly impressed that so many of the people I most respect on spiritual topics believe in reincarnation of one sort or another.<br /><br />Perhaps what I would most like to see in relation to this topic is recognition that reincarnation means very different, and almost opposite, things for different people. For some modern Western people it seems to mean that they can do-what-they-like during 'this' mortal life - which on the one hand frees them for any concern with morality and lets them indulge themselves 'with a clear conscience' but on the other hand downgrades the significance of their actual lives. <br /><br />Also, I don't think many modern Western people understand how profoundly pessimistic is the meaning of reincarnation in some Eastern religions - Westerners see reincarnation as opportunity and progress, Easterners almost the opposite. <br /><br />Hunter-gatherers are different again - it has been said (by Tim Ingold) that they see life in terms something like a closed system of circulating and transforming life energies. There is neither progression nor decline - just a permanent state of dynamic equilibrium. <br /><br />Of course, these are very modern scientific metaphors! But I am trying to be brief - a better description is in The Other Side of Eden by High Brody. Our HG ancestors do indeed seem to have lived in a kind of 'Eden' - but stuck in that state of non-divine immaturity, a state of spiritual childhood. From this perspective The Fall was a necessary and positive event in its potential, because there always is risk in spiritual progression. <br /><br />But we both, I think, feel that our ultimate goal as eternal beings is to become fully divine - and that this progression is an *extremely* long and slow process which requires *either* multiple reincarnations, *or* a great deal of post-mortal resurrected living and experiencing - *or* some combination of the two.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-55282780496194306012016-05-01T22:09:39.441+00:002016-05-01T22:09:39.441+00:00It may be that God has different ways of bringing ...It may be that God has different ways of bringing human souls to the same end, some through the process of reincarnation and some through the way you describe. I certainly would not be dogmatic about this. I do think that many lessons can only be learnt in a physical world where conditions are as they are, specifically we feel separate from God to a degree perhaps not possible in more spiritual worlds. I also think that part of our purpose is to spiritualise matter as Jesus did at the Resurrection and Ascension though clearly not in such an exalted manner as him or as dramatic a fashion. But perhaps you're right that certain people return for a specific job, though that would not preclude them having certain lessons to learn too as I know is the case in my own particular example. <br /><br />I think we both agree that life in this world is about accepting God and learning the lessons that that acceptance requires. In my scenario those who don't come back until they do but perhaps there are further opportunities in non-material worlds as well. I'm sure there are. Even so there must be something essential about this world, something that is only possible in a physical body, and it may be that it is only when in a body that we can consciously unite in ourselves the two poles of existence, that being part of the process you call theosis. Anyway let the debate continue!William Wildbloodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231219533755925897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-53291202877883461452016-05-01T19:45:26.749+00:002016-05-01T19:45:26.749+00:00Continued...
The incarnate human is often (by Mor...Continued...<br /><br />The incarnate human is often (by Mormons) called 'the soul' (i.e. they use a different terminology than you) - and the soul comprises the spirit and the body 'fused' - such that death of the body leaves the spirit maimed and incomplete - this was the situation of the Ancient Henrew underworld of spirits - 'sheol' - and the condition which Jesus Christ cured for us by enabling resurrection. <br /><br />The second question - which can be separated - is what about the kid of threescore years and ten complete mortal life? - what is all that for? We would agree that it is for theosis, for the process of divinization or moving toward being more like God. And I agree that it seems impossible to imagine that this could be squeezed into one mortal lifetime, with all its limitaions and with all our weaknesses (weaknesses that seem to be intrisnic to our learning, in some senses). <br /><br />Without reincarnation, clearly the bulk of theosis has to be done in pre-mortal spirit and post mortal-resurrected life - indeed, the concept is that all of our eternal existance is theosis; and that mortal life is necessary for only certain kinds of experience to do with the mortal condition. <br /><br />Furthermore, I think all this entails that each human spirit is *placed* in a specific situation (e.g. at the geographical location, the point in history and with the parents - also with the mind, body, abilities, disabilities and diseases etc) where these special experiences are most available - these make up our sense of an unique destiny. <br /><br />So this scheme answers what are to me the pressing questions. But still there is the question why *not* reincarnation? Well, I don't rule it out - not least because the above scheme may go wrong for one reason or another - eg. a person dies before they get the necessary experiences for which they were born; or somebody (a prophet or wise person) returns to perfom a job for God. <br /><br />How often does this happen? - and people want and need to be reincarnated for whatever reason? That I don't know - and I don't suppose it would have to be the same frequency at all times and places in history, which may account for such large differences in the way that reincarnation is described. Perhaps reincarnation has been very important and necessary and frequent in some times and places, but not others?<br /><br />I find that I don't have an intuition of my own reincarnation, and that some of the things that other explain by reincarnation I explain by supersensory (not perceptual, non-scientific) factors - such as spiritual inheritance, the existence of spritual groups, various non-sensory forms of communication etc. But I accept your own intuition of your reincarnation and the reasons you give for it - it makes sense in terms of what I know of your life. <br /><br />But I suspect that your personal destiny is more related to doing something for other people ('a job') than it is to working to move forward your own spiritual progress. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1513199068907090344.post-65540112057578064652016-05-01T19:36:37.347+00:002016-05-01T19:36:37.347+00:00@William
Thank you for this. I tend to suppose th...@William<br /><br />Thank you for this. I tend to suppose that reincarnation is a kind of spontaneous belief for human beings - at least it seems to be the norm for all hunter gatherers all around the world - but the specifics and reasons of what people mean by reincaration, and their reasons for believing it, seem to vary very widely. (e.f. see this overview by Owen Barfield - http://www.owenbarfield.org/why-reincarnation ). This is why I am interested in hearing what you-specifically think about it. <br /><br />I can see that your understanding of reincarnation fits with your general metaphysical system of understanding such that reincarnation is pretty much integral to it. <br /><br />Given that so many people believe in some version of reincarnation, perhaps it is more accurate to ask why people - most Christians - do not believe it usually happens (I think most Christians believe that it can happen, sometimes happens, but not many that it is an integral part of God's plan for Men). <br /><br />As you know, my metaphysical beliefs are specifcially Mormon - and from that perspective I think the big difference with your account is the role of incarnation: 'getting a body' is seen as the primary reason for life on earth; because this makes Men more like God the Father and Heavenly Mother - who are understood each to have a body that is perfected but otherwise essentially the same as mortal men and women. <br /><br />So the incarnate spirit is seen as superior to the pure spirit: the body is a plus. The idea is that pre-mortal spirits are given the opportunity and choce to incranate on earth as mortals - and receive a body (at minimum). <br /><br />I received this doctrine with a sense of it completing a puzzle, because (since reading some reflections of CS Lewis on the theme) I have been aware that a large majority of mortal men and women who have lived never made it to adulthood - indeed many of them never made it out of the womb. I therefore felt there must be a basic and universal reason for incarnation which had nothing to do with gathering the kind of experiences we do as adults. <br /><br />The *universal* benefit of mortal life is therefore understood as the getting of a physical body, which then is the template for the eternal resurrected body. <br /><br />Part of this is that many/ most of those people who die very early did not need to live longer than they did - they got what they needed, died, and then moved-on. <br /><br />(continued)Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.com